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New Tablesaw Question http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=7091	Page 1 of 2

Author:	Sprockett [ Mon Jun 12, 2006 3:23 am ]
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I've been building cabinets for the shop (sorry no pictures just yet), and after sweeping up piles of sawdust where it exits the back of my contractors saw I was getting frustrated. I can't install the DC system because some of the key parts are on backorder ... Then to make matters worse the pinion on the tablesaw came loose, forcing a trip to find parts to fix the problem so I could continue to build. I was able to finally convice the wife that after 11 years of great service the tablesaw is starting to show it's age and it's time we upgrade, so after some looking I've settled on two candidates: The Grizzly G1023SL Or The Grizzly G1023S They are essentially the same tablesaw, one tilts to the left and one is standard. The left tilting one (G1023SL) had a dust port and motor cover included in the cost. The question is what does a left tilt saw get me?? what's the advantage? I'll be adding a 44"x27" table extension and add my router lift to that and be bolting on my Incra Fence to the whole thing. The key points I see for upgrading are as follows: 1. Built in dust collection, my current table has a fully open back. I could try to seal it but I'm not sure it's worth the effort. 2. 3 HP!! that's double what I have now. 3. Should be quieter than what I'm using now. I'm hoping to be able to order it by the end of the month, but with my luck it will be back-ordered for 6 months Looking for any advice on which to choose or if you know of a better brand in the same price range... Thanks -Paul-

Author:	Chas Freeborn [ Mon Jun 12, 2006 3:36 am ]
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I prefer a left tilt saw, as the work isn't trapped between blade and fence during bevel cuts. Just my preference. I bought the Saw Stop saw and never looked back. Worth every penny as a saw and the also the safest saw on the planet to boot. -C

Author:	TonyKarol [ Mon Jun 12, 2006 4:05 am ]
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I wish I could have got a left tilt - but beggars cant be choosers when you deal a guitar for a Unisaw with Forrest blade and stabiliser a few years back. Had to add a dust chute and a motor covers, that took all of a coupel hours effort, but the 3 HP and unifence are great - I use a Incra jig ultra as well for slotting FBs.

Author:	Brad Goodman [ Mon Jun 12, 2006 4:18 am ]
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I say go for the Delta Unisaw,Powermatic or General(Canadian-not Taiwanese)

Author:	Sprockett [ Mon Jun 12, 2006 6:38 am ]
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Which models are you referring to Brad?? The Powermatic 1660791K is $2900!!! (though it DOES have a 5HP motor) The Delta that I saw was $1900 with a 6ft table (which is EXACTLY the size I want). Need specific details to make educated decisions I'm not tied to Grizzly, but they have good prices and have gotten good reviews all around on their table saws. I would love to have a powermatic if there was one in my price range (say no more than $1500 max)... I'd do a SawStop like Chas but their price is a little too high for me, but they have gotten stellar reviews on the saws (that's not including the safety stop portion, just the saw portion). This is a big purchase for me, I'll most likely use this next saw until I just can't cut anymore so it's important that I get one that's a good solid performer... Cheers -Paul-

Author:	Sylvan [ Mon Jun 12, 2006 6:43 am ]
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The Sawstop cannot use any blades other than 10" or an 8" dado set. In other words, no fretting or kerfing to be had! I wish it did not have that issue since we (Guitarmakers) routinly use blades other than 10"!

Author:	Tim McKnight [ Mon Jun 12, 2006 7:25 am ]
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Paul, I have the left tilt Grizzly and love it. The saw was not perfectly square when it arrived and I had to tune it a bit but I am a happy camper now. I went from a right tilt Jet contractors saw to the left tilt Griz cabinet saw and it took some getting used to but it wasn't awakward at all. My only complaint is that the arbor seems to be further away from me so I have to lean further over the saw. If I am there for a long period of time, it gets to my back. It could be due to the massive Griz fence rail is wider than the Jet but none the less I wouldn't hesitate to buy another one. Great saw for the money. If you aren't in a big hurry you might consider waiting for the tent sale in September IF you are located within driving distance of an outlet??? I hear they have some TREMENDOUS deals but you have to camp out in the parking lot [over night] to get a good spot in line ;(

Author:	Brad Goodman [ Mon Jun 12, 2006 7:41 am ]
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Paul, 3 H.P. is plenty. If the price is too much for a new one I would consider a used one. I bought a used 3 H.P. Unisaw 25 years ago-I have never had one second of downtime!! You can get one for $800-$1000. with a bismeyer fence. I see the new ones advertised for around $1700. I have plenty of Taiwanese tools,and they just don't compare to good old American iron IMHO. For example I just had to replace the motor on my Taiwanese 5 H.P. planer aprox. 15 years old-not the first time I have had problems with imported motors. I will bet dollars to doughnuts that the American made(Leeson) motor in my 40 year old Unisaw will last longer than me!! The other problems I have encountered on Taiwanese machines is that the pullys,shafts,etc. are machined to much lower tollerances than the American macihnes and I have had to replace them with better made American parts. Don't get me started on Italian motors!!Brad Goodman38880.6961689815

Author:	Don Williams [ Mon Jun 12, 2006 7:51 am ]
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Brad, That's a very interesting observation. I had a long talk with Louis Iturra some time ago when I started looking at bandsaws to replace my Rockwell 14". (Still haven't bought one, but that's another story) He said that the biggest weakness in the Taiwanese products are (ready for this?) their motors. The Italian motors are better, but still not as good as Baldor or Leeson. In fact, I heard that either Laguna or MiniMax is starting to put Baldor motors on their saws. You hit the proverbial nail on the head. He has me leaning toward buying the 21" grizly saw, and eventually replacing the motor with a Baldor or Leeson. He believes the saw easily lives up to the comparable sized Italian saws, with that one exception, but for a LOT less money - way more than enough to buy a better motor.

Author:	Brad Goodman [ Mon Jun 12, 2006 7:59 am ]
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Don, I agree-If I had it all to do ver again I could have saved myself aroud $2000. by buying another saw. Bridgewood has the baldor motors standard on their saws.

Author:	Jeff Doty [ Mon Jun 12, 2006 9:45 am ]
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[QUOTE=ToddStock] As an example, I process .060-.080 binding strips on a Jet cabinet saw, with the work between fence and blade as I take off .005 at a time. This would be a very hazardous cut without an add-on base, multiple well-designed and well-placed feather fingers, and an appropriate guard for debris should a binding strip disintegrate. As it is, I can feed the work halfway into the saw, dance a jig (not that I'd recommend it), and resume the cut without risk of losing control or getting eyes/hands close to the blade. If you invest in a table saw, plan on spending at least 25% of the ticket cost on an effective snap-in splitter, zero clearance inserts, effective feather boards, and some raw material for jigs. [/QUOTE] Todd, It would be wonderful if you could take some pictures of your setup, or other jigs, etc. that you use. Or, do a brief tutorial on safety for the luthier. I have a tablesaw, but I am extremely paranoid, and just a little nervous everytime I use it. Jeff

Author:	Bobc [ Mon Jun 12, 2006 10:03 am ]
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I've had my Laguna over a year now and it came with the 5hp Baldor motor. The 2hp Taiwanese Motor on my Grizzly was a piece of junk. I have 2 bandsaws the Laguna and a Jet well and a 14" Delta sitting in my garage and a Delta radial arm saw. My table saw now is a workbench and dust collector. Bobc38880.7958680556

Author:	Sprockett [ Mon Jun 12, 2006 10:48 am ]
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Todd... Your right on the money.... I have never had a tablesaw accident, probably because the **** thing scares me so much I really think out cuts before making them (I have had pieces fly across the shop but I never cut in front of it). On the other hand I got bit by the bandsaw because I fell into a mindset of how safe it is (which is true BUT it has it's own set of dangers). It's really a matter of which way I want to compromise, my current saw is a 10" Jet contractors and it's been a super reliable workhorse.... Thanks for the feedback, now off too google!!! the researchers friend -Paul- So I'm looking for American made motors now and I don't want used, if I'm spending over $1200 for a tool I'm not interested in something used. I want that sucker to come out of a box... I need to do some research on Powermatic and General International and see what they offer and how much damage it's going to do to the ole budget!!! The Riving Knife on the SawStop is a major advancement, I wish more saws had it. As I remember the Powermatic also had a good splitter. I'm going to stop by the local WoodCraft and see what they have in stock, I remember seeing a GI in there with a full extension table on it. Not sure how much they are charging though.LanceK38884.283912037

Author:	Sprockett [ Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:06 am ]
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I did some research on various saws... Powermatic is tops but it's also the most expensive, it's just way out of my league.... The General 650-T50 goes for $2399, but they also sell a 50-220 which is a cheaper version. However I read some fairly negative reviews of it... So that leaves Delta and Grizzly, Delta offers a 3HP Cabinet Saw with a 50" fend and table for $1099, the Unisaws are 110 and 1.5HP's. I didn't see any 3HP motors for their unisaw line. So it's now down to Delta and Grizzly, the local woodcraft's prices where so high I practically ran out of the store What I could not tell was what type of motors Delta is using as compared to Grizzly, if I could find a decent priced Powermatic I would consider bumping my budget a bit. I'm a little concerned about Delta because I've had some quality issues with my delta tools, my drill press tossed a clip on the speed clutch and I had to lug it down to a repair shop, the owner told me he sees them all the time... And the search goes on Cheers -Paul-

Author:	johno [ Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:06 am ]
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I got the grizzly. I recommend it. We discussed this on this forum before so maybe your research could include going through the archives here. Check out the topic titled "Grizzly Cabinet Saws--opinions?" Also here is nice review. Compare Grizzly to PowerMatic

Author:	John How [ Tue Jun 13, 2006 2:18 pm ]
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I've had those same quality issues with Delta and have several grizzly tools in operation for years with out problems. They seem pretty sturdy to me as well as good values.John How38881.9717013889

Author:	John How [ Wed Jun 14, 2006 1:38 am ]
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Paul, you mentioned adding your router table in the right wing of your table saw. I did this on my old Grizzly saw and I really like it. You were talking about getting the G1023SL model and adding your router table, if you get the G1023SLW, same saw $20 more and it already has a router table built in plus an extra set of legs to stableize that side. Just a thought. John How38882.443912037

Author:	Marc [ Wed Jun 14, 2006 4:30 am ]
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Not to start up a left-tilt right-tilt debate, but, I prefer the right tilt for precision craftsmanship type work, because you can switch-out different kerf width blades and the right cut-off point remains fixed, no fence re-calibration. That being said, I also believe kickback to be the most frequent hazard on table saws and right tilt is more vulernable if you use the fence on the right side for bevel cuts.

Author:	Brock Poling [ Wed Jun 14, 2006 10:57 am ]
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[QUOTE=John How] Paul, you mentioned adding your router table in the right wing of your table saw. I did this on my old Grizzly saw and I really like it. You were talking about getting the G1023SL model and adding your router table, if you get the G1023SLW, same saw $20 more and it already has a router table built in plus an extra set of legs to stableize that side. Just a thought. [/QUOTE] I have been looking at this, do you know of a router that has a table top adjustment that will work with a set up like this? I have really been torn over this saw and the PM. the PM is SOOOO much more money, but I have never been disappointed in buying top quality tools..... decisions decisions.

Author:	John How [ Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:26 pm ]
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Brock, I think this is just an insert where you would mount your router base and use whatever adjustments are included on it. I have seen an adjustable router table I think at Rockler but I'm not familiar with it. That would be really nice to be able to adjust the router depth just like you would your saw depth huh. My old grizzly table saw has been working flawlessly since the mod 80's.

Author:	Sprockett [ Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:01 am ]
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I already have a setup like you want Brock, I'm using the Incra LS Fence system and a Jessem router lift plate with the digital attachment. It works very well and lets my table saw do double duty, I can get you the rockler numbers if yuou want, Ive been very happy with the setup overall.. I looked at Johns suggestion of the router plate that Grizzly offered but it's not adustable, on mine I can raise and lower the router without removing the top and I put a woodpecker dust collecter chute below the router to catch all the dust, works really well. Still haven't fully decided yet (as in no money has left my hands), but I'm pretty much settled on the Grizzly, it's just too much bang for the buck. It's either that or find a used powermatic since they don't have any 'base' models. Cheers -Paul-

Author:	Brock Poling [ Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:12 am ]
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Did you build the extension table and drop the insert into it, or did you find a table that fits the saw too? If you found a table that fits the Grizzly saw I would be interested in the part number for that. Thanks.

Author:	Mark Tripp [ Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:12 am ]
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Brock: I think most of the table top adjustment mechanisms require an insertable router plate. The router table extension on the Grizzly just has the bit insert plate, with the router mounted to the bottom of the extension using quick release clamps on T-tracks, which would preclude the use of table top adjusters. But you could always order without the extension, and build your own to accept a table top adjuster. -Mark

Author:	John How [ Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:15 am ]
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I just took the right extension off and replaced it with a double sheet of MDF using barrel nuts and bolts. I also put on a sheet of black formica laminate on the top. It works great, although one of these days I'd like to upgrade to a newer and more powerfull Grizz, it's not a real priority right now.

Author:	Mark Tripp [ Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:21 am ]
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Extension from Rockler and lift plate from Rockler Think I'd follow John's lead and build the table though... -Mark

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